Saw this trainer yesterday...

[Laura]

We saw this trainer yesterday at Mustang Days. His name is George Gouvas, and he is from the Colville area.

He has been training horses since he was a little kid, and he certianly has some different ideas about horsemanship. He is not a fan of today's "natural horsemanship" movement. The two horses that he used in his demonstration seemed like very soft and willing partners. He is very hands-on (not keeping horse out of his "bubble" but wants the horse right at his side), and gives lots of rewards by rubbing. He had some interesting thoughts about keeping your horse's attention by keeping it interested and not boring it to death by endless repetitions of a task.

I found this video on the 'net -- The horse he is working with here is Blade, a BLM mustang, and at the time the video was shot it was about 6 weeks from his adoption and was totally wild.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZMV0Z7L4YQU

My husband was a little disturbed by some of the things on the video (i.e., standing on the horse while it is lying down - at about 8:05 or so in the video).

We saw George and Blade yesterday and Blade looked so very soft (it is now about 6 months from his adoption) with none of the tail-wringing seen in the video.

Anyway, thought I'd share. It's interesting to see different training methods.

[Handyman]

Interesting. It is good to see different training methods, but I don’t like trainers who criticize other successful methods. That shows a severe lack of respect for a lot of very successful trainers. His method works for him, and that’s great. There are many different training methods that are successful.

This begs the question: What is Natural Horsemanship?

Natural Horsemanship is not a new method, and has been around for hundreds of years; however, the name "Natural Horsemanship" was coined by Pat Parelli in the 1980's. Although Parelli is not the father of the movement, he gives that credit to Ray Hunt, Tom Dorrance, and many others like them.

Tom Dorrance wrote: “When people think of natural horsemanship, that could mean a lot of things. It isn't natural for a horse to be around people, and it's not natural for a person to be sitting on him either. When we use these words we speak about what's natural for the horse to do within his own boundaries.”

Natural Horsemanship is the philosophy of working with horses by appealing to their instincts and herd mentality. It involves communication techniques derived from wild horse observation in order to build a partnership that closely resembles the relationships that exist between horses.

Natural Horsemanship is an alternative to many of the conventional horse training methods which involved fear, force, coercion and pain. For many trainers that you see, you are looking at the end result, you do not get to see what they do “behind the barn”. Natural Horsemanship has taken criticism from trainers who do not like to use gentler methods and are therefore scornful of the movement.

Since Horses are social herd animals, and are based on social interaction and the ability to escape predators, the horse has a highly developed communication system practiced primarily through body language. Horses are excellent at observation, far surpassing the human at this skill.

Natural Horsemanship requires the human to be knowledgable of the horse’s natural instincts and communication system, and to use this knowledge in their work with the horse. It is designed to better help humans and horses communicate. There is an emphasis on timing, feel and consistency from the trainer. Humans can learn to use their body language to communicate with the horse in a similar way that horses do to each-other.
The object is for the horse to be calm and feel safe throughout the training process. A horse that feels calm and safe with his handler is quick to bond with that person, and the results can be remarkable.

Natural Horsemanship avoids fear and pain-based training methods, and aims to not only train the horse, but the human. Every moment that humans spend around the horse, they are either training, or un-training the horse. It is important for humans to learn how to communicate with their horse using methods that the horse understands to have an effective and safe partnership with their horse. Every moment spent with the horse is an opportunity to improve it’s training. In Natural Horsemanship, the trainer uses body language along with other forms of gentle pressure to get the horse to respond. Horses are quick to form a relationship of respect with humans who treat them in this fashion.

For new horses, we have to establish a level of respect with that horse. We cannot allow that horse within our personal space until we invite the horse there. This establishes that respect and keeps the human safer. This is also what the horse does in the wild. The dominant horses will establish space around them before and keep the new horse at a distance until it has established that respect. This may occur over the course of several days before the new horse is allowed closer. Once that respect has been established, we can invite the horse into our space.

What is the goal of most famous Natural Horsemen? To train the owner of the horse, because it is the owner that is going to be around the horse all the time, not the trainer. Although some trainers will criticize Natural Horsemanship because it takes business away from them – They make their money by you sending your horse to him to have it trained. But a good trainer is someone who can train the owner how to handle their horse and create a better horse-man relationship.

[Laura]

Agreed -- well said, Handyman!

[RideHappy]

I think that was well-said, too. I really agree that the owner is the one who needs to be trained in order to do right by the horse.

When my daughter was young, we worked out a deal with her that we would pay for her horse's training if she worked alongside her. The trainer was a good friend who was and is wonderful at what she does and she welcomed it--agreeing, too, that it's the OWNERS who need the training. She allowed Shiloh to be right there with her every step.

It was the best money we ever spent. Shiloh was too young and inexperienced to really know what she was doing by herself, but she admired the trainer and learned about horses at warp speed--benefiting from her years of hard-earned horse wisdom.

[FlyingCowgirl]

I also watched this trainer. I don't agree with him bringing the horse in so close to him. He was a very big man. I'm only 5', I'm easily knocked over or trampled, he is not as easy. When I sold my intact Arab colt, he was acting like a fool at the new place and I was worried while leading him. The trainer was a big man, just like the trainer mentioned above. That colt instantly listened. A person's size can intimidate a horse, sometimes that's good, sometimes it's not. I like to have my personal space and my horse's typically learn and respect it.

He had good thoughts on things, he didn't have a real agenda and his subjects flip flop around too much. My mind wandered a lot during the presentation. And there were times where it seemed he was bragging too much about himself.

One thing I wanted to point out in the presentation. He talked about how you could ruin a horse by doing things that you weren't knowledgable about. What I think is important is that you continue to learn, but you also keep active with your horse. I felt like his emphasis would make a person less likely to go out and just learn and play with their horse.

My friend Dana, is also a clinician. Her motto is JUST RIDE! And I agree. Just get out there and be active with your horses, don't be afraid to make mistakes and learn from them.

And lastly, he never really explained how he taught his horses to work at liberty. I would like to know step by step... where he started and how he got to the point he was at.

We all start somewhere and I don't want to sound like I'm trash talking the guy. He had some good ideas and it was an interesting presentation.

He mentioned that he learned from Derek Anderson. Well, I have VHS videos of Derek doing a stallion presentation for a couple different years at liberty. It always fed my love of Arabian horses. These videos are probably 20+ years old now. I would mind seeing one of his clinics, since I've heard he's being doing some.

[Laura]

My friend Dana, is also a clinician. Her motto is JUST RIDE! And I agree. Just get out there and be active with your horses, don't be afraid to make mistakes and learn from them.

Interesting you mention this, and I agree completely! In fact, it's one of the reasons that Mark Rashid is fast becoming the trainer/horseman that I am taking more and more away from these days. It's exactly what he says -- just get out there and do it. You form a relationship with your horse by working with it, trying different things, seeing what works and what response you get. They are all different, and we all have different ways of applying everything that we learn and see. You aren't going to have a better relationship by sitting in the house watching videos or programs on RFD nearly as much as you are by getting out there and just DOING it!

Alisa - if you ever hear of Derek Anderson doing any sort of presentation around here, let me know - I would love to see it.

[highwayoflife]

I agree, Lisa. Horses are not in our weight class, weighing 5 - 6 times more than we do. It’s a matter of safety to keep them out of our space unless we invite them in. It’s also why we don’t let the horses turn their butt on us when we’re working with them, if they were to kick, they could seriously injure us. But the horses which have learned to respect our space and have established a level of trust, we can do more with. You could crawl under them, pull their tail to back them up (I should take video of Francis and Ranger doing this), stuff we could never do with a horse that we’ve not worked with.

It’s always better to make sure the horse stays out of your space, he is going to be better about respecting you as his leader. A lead mare doesn’t just allow other horses into her space, she makes sure that she has plenty of space.

I also like the idea of going and playing with your horse. I’m of the mindset that you cannot learn unless you can make some mistakes. And as long as you have the basic knowledge, you don’t have to worry about ruining the horse. If you’re doing the right thing most of the time, your horse is not going to be that easy to ruin. People should be encouraged to go out and just be around their horse. The more time we spend with them, both on the ground and in the saddle, the better that horse will be. Plus every moment spent with the horse is an opportunity to train him.

You mentioned that the trainer was a big guy, that reminded me of the cowboy who we purchased Ranger from, Al, was not a tall guy, but was a huge muscular man. Al could get a horses’ to do anything just by his sheer strength. He appeared stronger than the horses, and they respected him because of that. But most of us don’t have that kind of advantage. Al’s main horse was this massive beast of a quarter horse, quite likely the biggest meanest horse you’ve ever seen. She had a nasty temperament, and when he got on her (with no groundwork), she started moving around, crow-hopping up and down, but Al was able to quickly get her under control just because he was so strong. If I tried that, the mare might have killed me!
Francis has taught Ranger using much gentler methods, and Ranger is far more sensitive and far less jumpy and flighty of a horse than when we got him.

I also find it’s more valuable to learn something from a clinician that isn’t working with their horse that has been with them for 5 years and knows everything already. I want to see what the trainer can do with a horse he has never worked with before, and see what he does to take it from point a to point b. I don’t want to see the end result (z). Any trainer can show off their horse, but not everyone can really show you step-by-step how to get there.